First, I see a lot of comments that there are not a lot of women actively involved in “geeky” tech things like FOSS, because it is an environment either actively hostile or unintentionally exclusionary toward women, and this destroys their interest in it. This is often represented as entirely the fault of the men in question and their sexist mindsets. However, a social environment where people feel comfortable using racy slides in their presentations, or where “girls” can be taken to mean “non-technical people” can only have developed in a cultural environment *already* devoid of women. Western culture as a whole has until recently been such that interest in “geeky” things was generally not cultivated in females. With a lack of general female interest, it becomes possible for generalizations of “females aren’t interested” to become the norm within the smaller culture of FOSS or any other “geeky” niche interest. We didn’t start with an equally distributed concentration of both genders only to suddenly have RMS scare all the women away, and had women been around all this time, nobody would have become comfortable showing softcore porn while discussing free software. The truth is that the majorty of straight men within FOSS and other “geek” communities *want* more women to share their interests, but they’re too used to that just not being the case.

Certainly, some consideration on the part of the guys could make things more inviting, but it just treats a symptom. The cure is to undo the cause. When there are more women interested and active in the FOSS community, a sexist or hostile trend in the culture cannot persist. The same problems of sexism used to plague the cultures of anime fans, video game fans (still a notable amount of it there), and role players, and in all of these cases the remedy was the same as I’m recommending here for FOSS. No amount of accusing the existing subcultures ever helped, no matter how accurate and constructive or how overblown and hypocritical. The larger culture outside of the subculture first has to produce significant numbers of women who are interested in the object of the subculture for its own merits, only then the female-deprived culture can or will (and must!) mature and adjust in response. Until then, playing the card of “angry excluded Other” only feeds the stereotype that women don’t fit in here, and that’s counterproductive.

I also have a complaint about the “privilege” argument that I see a lot. I’m a male. I’m also Caucasian. I’m also straight. None of these have got me anything in life. I’m neither wealthy, nor powerful, nor respected. I didn’t start with more in life than the women, or the non-Caucasians, or the gay or bi people I know. In some cases, I started with less. Not all of these people have met with obstacles of prejudice or disadvantage, either. Certainly more people of “my kind” according to these arbitrary categories are privileged with free advantages than those who are not, but I’m not one of them. Just as being female, or gay, or black, or whatever should not automatically place a person in the “fail” category, it should not be assumed that *not* being part of a marginalized group doesn’t place a person in the “privileged” category. To forget (or in some cases willfully ignore) this only feeds and perpetuates the same “isms” we want to stamp out. When the entire problem is the idea of “us versus them” you absolutely cannot fight it with arguments of “us versus them”.

Yes I did say that. I’ve also said EXACTLY THE SAME THING about male programmers. As regards your silly “newsflash”, that’s EXACTLY THE SAME THING I keep saying. In fact if you’ve actually read my posts you would have seen that.

As to derailing, just about any time a claim of sexism is made, and someone disagrees, the claims *HAVE* to be that the person is derailing. Nope. We’re just disagreeing. See, I AM a sexist, and as such I recognize sexist behavior. Mark’s actions don’t qualify. (Mine certainly do. But then I’m more than sexist, I’m everything-ist. In fact I’ve concluded that the rest of humanity pales in comparison to my greatness, so *TECHNICALLY* I’m an aoirthoirist.)

Finally “As for most FOSS developers being jackasses, well, most people are point blank from what I’ve seen. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try harder not to be”

Agreed. Why though should we try harder not to be? We shouldn’t and here’s the reason. Whether someone is a jackass or not is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. I’ve met the nicest folks that others INSISTED prior to my meeting them that they were jackasses. And I’ve met the most ludicrous people that were almost always treating everyone else with disdain and folks thought they were wonderful.

In the case of Free Software, merely refusing to add features can have you called a jackass. I for instance do not distribute my software in the wild. But ALL of the software I write is freed to the company or person or client I write it for. Occasionally I use the software on other projects. So when someone does occasionally get hold of my software and ask for additions, I generally don’t accommodate, I just don’t have time to work for gratis in addition to the gratis work I am already doing. So that makes me a jackass to them. Why then should I “try harder not to be [a jackass in their mind]” and just give them whatever they want of my time?

Stoffe, Yup. Feminists are noted for that. Go spend some time on feministing.com. You’ll notice that if a company creates a pink product BECAUSE OF DEMAND for it, they will make a post, accuse the company of HATING women and that post will acquire 50, 60, 100 or more comments agreeing with steamed ears. But then someone will make a post about women being murdered in Africa and you’re lucky to see 3 posts. So much for intersectionality.

MikeUSA, As I’ve said before I do not believe the Biblical law that allows a man to force his daughter to marry her rapist IS beneficial for men. It is perhaps beneficial to SOME men (the rapist) in that he then has the woman he wants without regard to anyone else. (Though I would state that since the Biblical law forbids divorce in this case it’s not even beneficial to the rapist). In reality though every culture that has allowed women to be enslaved, has likewise allowed men to be enslaved and stripped EVERYONE of their autonomy. Governments in such areas have carte blanc to do whatever they want and they’ve used it freely.

DJ,

Mark didn’t degrade anyone. There are some broads that no matter how you speak, no matter how respectful you are to them, no matter how much you cater to their entitlements, are still going to be upset.

Also, how Nationalistic of you to state:

“But, from what I’ve read about S. Africa, Mark seems to be a product of his environment.”

right after you stated that smart people say dumb things. Which is also very ABLEIST of you.

When will you Feminists and Feminist Supporters understand it is NOT OK to practice one ism in defense of another ism? So far on these Ubuntu Feminists blogs I’ve seen:

Racism,
Classism,
Nationism,
Ableism
Sexism
Ageism
Homophobia
Queerphobia
Bi-phobia
Polyphobia
Anti-Christianism
Anti-Paganism
Anti-Satanism
Anti-Islamism
and otherisms

all used to defend women. Sorry, that doesn’t cut it folks. If you stand up and demand that you or a particular group be treated with respect, then you are required AT LEAST DURING YOUR DEMAND to treat ALL groups with respect. Calling people who are sexist “dumb” or saying they say “dumb” things as a way to object to their comments DEMEANS persons that cannot speak. Saying someone is INSANE or CRAZY because you disagree with what they say (whether what they say is right or wrong0 DEMEANS persons with mental illness.

So you DEMAND that folks like Mark change his language, how about starting with the person in the mirror?

But let me tell you what will follow my comments (if anything follows) and what will not follow. What will follow if anyone response is excuses. Rather than focusing on CHANGING THEIR LANGUAGE to complain about sexism, they will INSIST on using the SAME DEHUMANIZING ISMS (especially ableism) to attack people they feel are sexist. Whether the person ACTUALLY IS sexist or not won’t matter to them. Why not? Because it gives them free reign to practice their own [usually abled] privilege, and continue to say things which CATEGORICALLY DEMEAN entire groups of people, while patting themselves on the back that they got their Feminist 101 on.

Here is what you will likely NOT see. The SAME KIND OF HONEST APOLOGY for using their own -ist language (usually ableism) that they demanded from Mark for his [supposed] sexist language. So then that leaves us with the question, why if they act, as they claim Mark acts, should we even hearken one ear to their complaints? After all, we’re just acting EXACTLY like they are, but to a different group of people. (Assuming we are indeed acting sexist, which Mark was not, but I certainly am).

When people pigeon hole other people, I often thing of this quote:
“You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering.” – Dr. Who

*Bethrotal in that time was the young female living with her husband for 1 year prior to the marraige. Kindof like today’s live-in-fiancee thing, exept she dared not be a bitch to the man.

If there’s one reason among the many to fight sexism, it’s so that we can reach more people, in more places and fields, with the idea that software should be free-as-in-freedom. If you can’t see that, that’s fine – just please stop trying to derail every conversation those of us who do think it’s a problem try to have about sexism. Go back to writing code, if you actually know how in anything besides COBOL. Or contribute to support, documentation, etc.

As for most FOSS developers being jackasses, well, most people are point blank from what I’ve seen. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try harder not to be

Secondly there was a time that one would assume first that a person was well intentioned with miniscule statements. So I am with you on first assuming they mean well and then going from their. But, making such an assumption does not lend itself well to victimology.

Leigh,

You should read my post there you linked to more fully. MikeUSA was making the claim that the bible authorized a father to force his daughter to marry her rapist. Indeed it *does* do so. Several others in the thread and on the site were denying this fact. I was merely correcting their false claim. You should have noted that this law was one of the things that caused me to discard Christianity.

As to his claims that FOSS doesn’t *need* women, well if the claims are factual, that only 1% or 2% of FOSS developers are women, that would lead one to wonder, how it’s gotten so far without women if it *has* to have women. What Free Software needs is not men, (waepmen or wombmen or any other sex or gender), but rather developers that are skilled and produce needed software.

One final quote from the article “Except, that foss developers are all jack asses.” Nuff said.

But it’s not Mark himself who needs to change. It’s the constant barrage, and that’s going to take a community effort.